Ah yes, the original sin messaging that has compounded for general existing in patriarchy messaging that sent me straight into adulthood with zero sense of self-love, confidence, or worthiness. This God who made me terrible so he could save me from my terrible self? Stockholm Syndrome God. Anyway, you know I get it lol
PS
I say this with every bit of sincerity and seriousness: F*ck CRU.
Everyone seems to love the song Amazing Grace, but I hate the first line that says grace saved a wretch like me. Raised in a Baptist church, I agree that the church often can teach us we are unworthy. Sad.
People misbehave. The Hebrew Bible has a few different words for this misbehavior. In the Hebrew Bible, misbehaving doesn’t change your state, your status. When you misbehave you become someone who misbehaved. You don’t become “a misbehaver.” In other words, the idea that human beings are “sinners” is a concept that was created after the period in which the Hebrew Bible was written.
Yes, I appreciate your thoughts, Dan. It makes me think about how quick I used to be to label myself and others “sinner,” but never “gracer.” Thanks for weighing in.
Just preordered it. I directed a church camp for four years and later went into prison ministry. I noticed in both how easy it was to manipulate children and prison inmates into “decisions” if you just knew the words to say. Personally, I was never comfortable with that approach and my “numbers” showed it. As a pastor I took heat for refusing to give altar calls. All this was before my deconstruction.
Ordered! I had grown up knowing and understating penal substitution; I was shocked to discover other "theories," which were Biblical, and heretical. My personal cringe witnessing technique is "The cross as a Bridge" metaphor.
Coming from a mainline Protestant tradition, I only experienced this theology on the periphery of my faith, but still wrestled with it, for sure. About a decade ago, I decided that, best I could, I’d try to minimize the entire concept of “atonement” as much as possible…because the term has in fact become so harmfully loaded as you’re describing here. My own theological wrestling is here:
Yes, grateful for your insight, Eric! I’ve landed in a mainline Protestant tradition now, but will always feel that tangled wrestling of interpretation between what I believed for so long and what I believe now — including in theories and interpretations of the atonement. Look forward to reading your insights!
Oh, the parallels are real. I certainly hope folks see the connection in the book as well. After all, it’s not just about church camp but it’s about an entire subset of people (who now hold a lot of power in our country).
Hi. Congrats on the book! I’m looking forward to reading it. Just your Substack post conjured up memories of my summers at church camp/bible school and other manipulative tools I was introduced too while growing up in the south. ✌️
I am truly sorry and sad (and a little pissed off) that your youth group experience was not a good one.
Thank you for opening up and sharing that wound.
And i might be taking your good & honest post too sensitively, (being a retired youth group leader) but i feel moved to point out that, while yes, you should do your homework, but not all youth groups can be/should be automatically lumped into the characteristics you describe. There are good and fine youth groups out there that are hard at work showing young folks practical and invaluable examples of what their faith's work in action can do. i personally found it most encouraging and amazing to be able to get these kids away from their (somtimes toxic) parents for just a little while.
So I think it depends more on the vision of the leader than anything else. (And the patience of the congregation) (🙂)
Hi Chuck! Glad to connect. I’m so glad to hear your experience was different. Mine took place mostly within a church camp environment (that didn’t necessarily have anything to do with youth group), which often happens because results - read decisions for Christ - are necessary within a shorter time frame. I imagine because you erred on the side of long-term relationships and perhaps a different theological perspective altogether, ascribing to penal substitution wasn’t necessary. And that’s good news!
Years ago I invited an agnostic friend to church. I asked him a few times one day he showed up. After the service he said it was nice thanks for the invite, I’ll visit again. He and I had so many talks about how the church is exactly what your question asks. Sadly still today all these years later so many are made to feel less than when it comes to churches.
You aren’t familiar with what the Catholic and Anglican churches did to indigenous children? Taken away from their families. Decades of abuse up until the 1960s and 70s. Many died. Parents weren’t even informed when their child died. The children were not allowed to speak in their native language. Instead of names, they were called a number. You can’t tell me the priests and nuns believed in god. If they did, how could they committ these acts.
Ah yes, the original sin messaging that has compounded for general existing in patriarchy messaging that sent me straight into adulthood with zero sense of self-love, confidence, or worthiness. This God who made me terrible so he could save me from my terrible self? Stockholm Syndrome God. Anyway, you know I get it lol
PS
I say this with every bit of sincerity and seriousness: F*ck CRU.
Bill Bright did a NUMBER on the world by creating the four spiritual laws. One hundo percent! In this with you, Mattie Jo!
Everyone seems to love the song Amazing Grace, but I hate the first line that says grace saved a wretch like me. Raised in a Baptist church, I agree that the church often can teach us we are unworthy. Sad.
Yes! What does it instead mean to believe we’re worthy, simply because we’re human (and not because we’re a wretch)?
People misbehave. The Hebrew Bible has a few different words for this misbehavior. In the Hebrew Bible, misbehaving doesn’t change your state, your status. When you misbehave you become someone who misbehaved. You don’t become “a misbehaver.” In other words, the idea that human beings are “sinners” is a concept that was created after the period in which the Hebrew Bible was written.
Yes, I appreciate your thoughts, Dan. It makes me think about how quick I used to be to label myself and others “sinner,” but never “gracer.” Thanks for weighing in.
Yep. And I used to be the director of a church camp. Well said.
Glad it struck a chord (as dissonant as that chord may be). I imagine the rest of the book will likely resonate with you, James!
Just preordered it. I directed a church camp for four years and later went into prison ministry. I noticed in both how easy it was to manipulate children and prison inmates into “decisions” if you just knew the words to say. Personally, I was never comfortable with that approach and my “numbers” showed it. As a pastor I took heat for refusing to give altar calls. All this was before my deconstruction.
tenets....not tenants. Fix it, please.
Oh Richard, thank you so much for catching this. I’ve fixed it online and just forwarded it to my editor. Appreciate you!
Ordered! I had grown up knowing and understating penal substitution; I was shocked to discover other "theories," which were Biblical, and heretical. My personal cringe witnessing technique is "The cross as a Bridge" metaphor.
The cross as a bridge. Yup, I remember that one well!
Grew up Catholic. No church camps but same punitive messaging …. Csnnot recall hearing about Jesus’ love until I was an adult… and NOT from the Church
Joanne, it sounds like we share a lot in common. I’m so glad you’ve been able to hear a true message of love.
Sounds like an amazing book.
Coming from a mainline Protestant tradition, I only experienced this theology on the periphery of my faith, but still wrestled with it, for sure. About a decade ago, I decided that, best I could, I’d try to minimize the entire concept of “atonement” as much as possible…because the term has in fact become so harmfully loaded as you’re describing here. My own theological wrestling is here:
https://open.substack.com/pub/wheneftalks/p/confonting-atonement-theology?r=9i0xo&utm_medium=ios
Yes, grateful for your insight, Eric! I’ve landed in a mainline Protestant tradition now, but will always feel that tangled wrestling of interpretation between what I believed for so long and what I believe now — including in theories and interpretations of the atonement. Look forward to reading your insights!
I feel ya…
I grew up in a conservative Lutheran school, midweek, and a Methodist church on Sunday.
The whiplash of “you are a sinner” at the one and “God loves you” at the other reverberated for years…probably still does.
You nailed it in more ways than one.
https://open.substack.com/pub/poetpastor/p/follow-me?utm_source=app-post-stats-page&r=5gejob&utm_medium=ios
One might see why trumpers are mostly white Christian’s. Seems to be a similarity…it’s easy to conn people that live in hate.
Oh, the parallels are real. I certainly hope folks see the connection in the book as well. After all, it’s not just about church camp but it’s about an entire subset of people (who now hold a lot of power in our country).
Hi. Congrats on the book! I’m looking forward to reading it. Just your Substack post conjured up memories of my summers at church camp/bible school and other manipulative tools I was introduced too while growing up in the south. ✌️
Yes.
I am truly sorry and sad (and a little pissed off) that your youth group experience was not a good one.
Thank you for opening up and sharing that wound.
And i might be taking your good & honest post too sensitively, (being a retired youth group leader) but i feel moved to point out that, while yes, you should do your homework, but not all youth groups can be/should be automatically lumped into the characteristics you describe. There are good and fine youth groups out there that are hard at work showing young folks practical and invaluable examples of what their faith's work in action can do. i personally found it most encouraging and amazing to be able to get these kids away from their (somtimes toxic) parents for just a little while.
So I think it depends more on the vision of the leader than anything else. (And the patience of the congregation) (🙂)
Hi Chuck! Glad to connect. I’m so glad to hear your experience was different. Mine took place mostly within a church camp environment (that didn’t necessarily have anything to do with youth group), which often happens because results - read decisions for Christ - are necessary within a shorter time frame. I imagine because you erred on the side of long-term relationships and perhaps a different theological perspective altogether, ascribing to penal substitution wasn’t necessary. And that’s good news!
A sermon this Sunday morning. Thank you
Years ago I invited an agnostic friend to church. I asked him a few times one day he showed up. After the service he said it was nice thanks for the invite, I’ll visit again. He and I had so many talks about how the church is exactly what your question asks. Sadly still today all these years later so many are made to feel less than when it comes to churches.
Thank you for this good read.
Morning! Well, thank you for sharing your experience and for the encouragement too. We’re in this together!
There are other ways forward, amen!
Oh what a bunch of shit. No church does this to kids.
You aren’t familiar with what the Catholic and Anglican churches did to indigenous children? Taken away from their families. Decades of abuse up until the 1960s and 70s. Many died. Parents weren’t even informed when their child died. The children were not allowed to speak in their native language. Instead of names, they were called a number. You can’t tell me the priests and nuns believed in god. If they did, how could they committ these acts.
I am quite aware of the Native American issues having worked for thirteen Tribes. That wasn’t what the article was about.
That’s not what the article was about.